Curse

cacto · Jun 04, 2007, 02:19 PM // 14:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draikin

This would also make Hero Battles a lot better than it is right now. Not just because everyone is using SP assassins but skills like Recall give the player an unfair advantage against someone who isn't using shadow stepping skills.

LOL...?Saying that is just like saying the other team using an LoD Infuse is unfair just because you don't have one. Recall is UNLINKED, so it requires no investment in the attribute, so any character with a secondary as an Assassin can use it.

moriz · Jun 04, 2007, 02:31 PM // 14:31

on the topic of aegis, this is what i envision it should be:

aegis
10/1/60
enchantment spell. for 1...12 seconds, you and your teammates gain 66% chance to block melee attacks.

i've always liked the idea of aegis, but i've never been fond of the idea of aegis chaining. this change will make aegis into an active defense, used in all out aggressive pushes and covering retreats.

B B · Jun 04, 2007, 03:24 PM // 15:24

Yay for glyph of renewal + aegis in that form ^

FoxBat · Jun 04, 2007, 03:48 PM // 15:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by B B

Yay for glyph of renewal + aegis in that form ^

Hey, if they want to spend their elite on that, be my guest...

Hyper Cutter · Jun 04, 2007, 04:02 PM // 16:02

I agree with whoever suggested making BHA work like Junundu Siege and not work at close range. The ridiculous arc on the thing should do the rest...

Aldready Dead Lich · Jun 04, 2007, 05:31 PM // 17:31

My suggests:

3. Disrupting Dagger
Even warriors prefer it other warrior interrupts and it's also better on assassins because it doesn't interrupt your own combination.
5 energy -> 10 energy

4. Harrier's Grasp
Only triggers on meele attacks.
Not really important, but I think this is a little bit to strong on rangers.

Edit: somehow 1+5 got lost oO (nerfs, not buffs, please keep it in mind -- thanks)

the_jos · Jun 04, 2007, 07:57 PM // 19:57

I´m only going to comment on changes on professions I´ve played, so this will be a short list.

I've read the rest and from my little knowledge about the metagame I'd say most are viable.
I've read most comments in the thread and the reasons behind some changes and I understand why those skills are a problem and need some fixing.
I also agree that fixing should be done by fixing what is broken and not patching by buffing what is not broken.

I think the BHA reduction to 4...10 is fair. Daze should be time out and not permanent disable a monk. I do like the ´not at close range´ surgestion people made in the thread.
If duration reduction is not an option, perhaps the stacking of Daze and poison should be reversed on BHA, giving a fast single condition removal a chance.
Getting daze on a monk and keeping it is still possible, but requires good team coordination, since you need an other player to apply a condition right after the daze. However, I'm not 100% sure if BHA has any value in high end PvP with the condition reversal.

Mesmer changes seem fair.

If the surgested changes get implemented I might switch to PvP more often, since I like the PvP competition and challenge, but not the way it was played since I quit it (a couple of months back).
I'll never play for a top 100 guild, but it would put back some fun that is not present in PvE.

Seamus Finn · Jun 04, 2007, 08:02 PM // 20:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aldready Dead Lich

My suggests:

3. Disrupting Dagger
Even warriors prefer it other warrior interrupts and it's also better on assassins because it doesn't interrupt your own combination.
5 energy -> 10 energy

While we are at it, can we ruin savage shot, D-shot, Bull's Strike, and any other money skill that is good for the game? The sin line needs MORE skills like these not less. The point of balancing is to nerf skills that are overpowered and/or hurt gameplay, not nerf them because they are great skills that see use and we want to see what happens when people can't take them.

The agressive refrain idea is interesting, but I might want the AIS bumped up to 33% depending on the severity of the armor loss. If you can force the paragon to kite over dpsing, then the paragon should probably be able to dps a bit better than he currently can.

SaintGreg · Jun 04, 2007, 08:10 PM // 20:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

I think the BHA reduction to 4...10 is fair. Daze should be time out and not permanent disable a monk. I do like the ´not at close range´ surgestion people made in the thread.
If duration reduction is not an option, perhaps the stacking of Daze and poison should be reversed on BHA, giving a fast single condition removal a chance.
Getting daze on a monk and keeping it is still possible, but requires good team coordination, since you need an other player to apply a condition right after the daze. However, I'm not 100% sure if BHA has any value in high end PvP with the condition reversal.

Wouldn't do much to reverse the stacking, you could just BHA then savage shot right after to reapply the poison over top of the daze. I also don't think they would ever change a game mechanic like that for just one skill, especially when it isn't necessary (EDIT: nuking the duration will suffice to balance it).

LuckyGiant · Jun 04, 2007, 09:47 PM // 21:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaintGreg

I also don't think they would ever change a game mechanic like that for just one skill, especially when it isn't necessary.

This is the case because it is really the only viable source of daze, here are some other sources of daze for comparison. Sins are preferable with greater spike dmg from the 'black' line. Warriors lose critical spike dmg when taking a daze skill since its elite. Paragons awe would require a lot of team cordination. Duration on rangers daze is clearly significantly longer with more favourable recharge leading to it being a lot more potent, also as already mentioned the base ranger usually consists of d-shot, savage, apply so they potentially have more flexibility in the elite slot.

Paragon
Awe (13 secs @ 12att, req target to be kded)
Stunning Strike [E] (9 secs @ 12att, req condition on foe)

Sin
Temple Strike [E] (8 sec @ 12 att, req lead)
Beguiling Haze [E] (6 secs @ 12 att, shadow step)
Golden Skull Strike [E] (9 secs @ 12 att, req you are enchanted)

Warrior
Skull Crack [E] (10 secs, req 9 adrenaline and interupt)

Ranger
Broad Head [E] (17 secs @ 12 att, slow moving, high arc)
Concuss Shot (17 secs @ 12 att, req interupt)

Xioden · Jun 04, 2007, 10:35 PM // 22:35

Simple fix for paragons; Their shouts/chants whatever don't work on other paragons with equal or greater leadership attributes.

This still leaves 1-2, maybe even 3 paragons being viable for a team build, but their effectiveness in their ability to stack skills across entire teams becomes more limited. It's a big nerf to paraway, leaves paragons a viable midline character, and doesn't at all nerf them for PvE (As no one tends to bring them as it is, so to do another round of nerfs would just be completely chopping their balls off).

Lodurr · Jun 04, 2007, 10:40 PM // 22:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by v o i d

- Soldier's Defense needs a recharge of 15.

Seconded. Just a light nerf will make it still runable and not imba.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

You can't balance hexes, or anything for that matter, around a 'balanced' defense being able to remove or otherwise counter your offense completely.

Buffing some hex removals and nerfing Faint, Reckless, and Reaper's might be enough to make hex builds beatable 8v8. But it'd be nice to see a bigger reworking of hexes that made them more like Backfire, Diversion, Ineptitude, and your version of Reckless Haste, where they would require timing and maybe some thinking on the part of the caster to make them effective. And less 123tab 123tab 123tab.

Lady Callingwell · Jun 04, 2007, 11:20 PM // 23:20

One of the top priorities on my personal wishlist is gole, the intention of anet was to provide a non-elite alternative to energymanagement; when now looking at the option available for non-ele primaries:
* GoLE provides 15 energy every 31 seconds at no price other than ele secondary (and spending it on 10+ energy skills, but that's not a big problem in most builds)
* Powerdrain at say 8 inspiration magic provides 12 energy every 25.25 seconds (although you need some time to search a spell to interupt) and requires the necesary skill in order to actually use it that way and requires attribute investment. Off course the interupt is some added value, but is cosidered a drawback for a lot of people with regards to actually doing it.
* Some elite alternatives are offering of spirit/blood, which both are only about equal to gole in any reasonable attribute investment situations (if you invest solely for energy management).

Now onto the ele itself, when looking at the traditional etherprodigy fueled ele there was the sacrifice of an elite to pump out all those expensive skills.
If you look at the energy gain of ether prodigy it provides an ammount of energy at 9 energy storage (which is about as far as you got with air and healing) of 23 every 30 seconds (to keep exhaustion steady, you could go deeper for a bit but not for long) which could be denied by removal and even provided quite some risks in the shatter enchantment heavy enviroment.
If we now look at GoLE in it's current version it provides (this time assuming you use it for 15 energy spells) 25 energy per 30 seconds without any drawbacks! So GoLE became a lot better than the elite anet felt to be overused/powered that also limited your use of other exhaustioncausing spells.
The two alternative elites in the estorage line require high energy storage (ether prism) or drastically reduced effectiveness when dp is acquired (second wind) and are both 2 second casts and cause exhaustion to boost!

So gole needs a hit in both the secondary range as well in the primary range imho to make it fair once more (or make it elite, but anet changed it to prevent forcing ppl into elite e-tools). I also think that the change in GoLE reduces a lot of the omnipresent aegis chaining, a lot of characters simply cannot afford it without GoLE, and the energy spent on it starts justifying it's effect once more.

Cirian · Jun 04, 2007, 11:56 PM // 23:56

(/arrives late

)

Nice to see another intelligent thread on Guru to get my brain in gear

Well I'll just touch on the necessary nerfs from the current list that I feel comfortable talking about...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Ritualist
Splinter Weapon: 1...4 triggers, 12d
Wielder's Strike: 10...40/10...40 Damage, 5r

I'm happy enough with the SW trigger change and I can understand the duration change, but the current long duration is there (I feel) as a crutch for skills that require a weapon spell to be present (case in point Wielder's Strike, the next skill on the list). Do you see Vital Weapon taking up that role?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Ranger
Broad Head Arrow: 4...10d

I'll throw my lot in with what you've got there and see how it goes. With respect to Concussion Shot, I was thinking about 15e, 2...5d, 15r. Daze is dangerous and dual effect it's true (like Deep Wound), but I really like the idea of it in principal providing the duration isn't rediculous. Certainly a 4...10d BHA is still something to be very afraid of if it sticks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Assassin
Shadow Prison: 2...6d

Just messing with the duration isn't enough, it's irredeemable and in need of a fundamental change. How about instead of a snare, it prevents the target from attacking for its duration? You decide on what that duration should be, I don't really have a good feel for it. Keep the 2..6 maybe. The skill becomes a combination of offence and defence, allowing offensive moves against foes with physical interrupts (although they can now kite successfully), and defensive moves against physicals making a push on a midliner or monk.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Necromancer
*Soul Reaping - Fix it. Best solution so far is "Remove Energy from Minions and Spirits that are not your own"*

Ah, the proverbial can of worms... I quite like the solution there providing the previous measures were dropped. I want to see the back of the 5s rule and the half energy from spirits rule as they are crude and arbitrary. The returns should be predictable.

Another idea, which is somewhat inspired by your energy regen ideas from a while back, would be to give the necromancer an unstrippable Soul Reaping buff everytime Soul Reaping was triggered. I'd word it like so: "For 6 seconds, gain 1 energy regeneration for every 2 ranks of Soul Reaping whenever a creature dies." This works out as the current gain from Soul Reaping on a single death offered on a choked time release instead of a potential torrent of large packets when many deaths occur quickly. The necromancer can still benefit somewhat from deaths that occur close together from their buff being refreshed - they wouldn't get full energy from it, but partial.

I really hope Anet does sort Soul Reaping out asap - it's... well it's just in a mess, but I like the back-loaded concept. I would like to see the N/Rt recover full energy from their own spirits at the very least because they can (used to?) handle some 25e spirits better than a Rt, namely the turrets, while shattering that horrible degenerate mess of spirit spam = infinite energy for a team of them. For that reason perhaps the "Remove Energy from Minions and Spirits that are not your own" should just go in no matter what, but I'd be interested to see if choking the energy recovery with a regen mechanic is enough first.

-Cirian

bungusmaximus · Jun 05, 2007, 12:30 AM // 00:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cirian

Just messing with the duration isn't enough, it's irredeemable and in need of a fundamental change. How about instead of a snare, it prevents the target from attacking for its duration? You decide on what that duration should be, I don't really have a good feel for it. Keep the 2..6 maybe. The skill becomes a combination of offence and defence, allowing offensive moves against foes with physical interrupts (although they can now kite successfully), and defensive moves against physicals making a push on a midliner or monk.

I like that, its an elite, beguiling haze is also an elite and more or less prevents the victim from casting (daze), SP prevents from attacking, both can be removed, and if the sin wants a snare he can take [skill]black mantis thrust[/skill].

moriz · Jun 05, 2007, 02:09 AM // 02:09

one way to fix hex stacks is to change how hexes are removed.

currently, all hex removals simply remove the top (or top few) hexes of the hex stack. instead, all hex removals should remove random hex(es) from the hex stack, not the top hex of the stack. this will cut a lot of power out of hex stack builds.

bungusmaximus · Jun 05, 2007, 02:46 AM // 02:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

one way to fix hex stacks is to change how hexes are removed.

currently, all hex removals simply remove the top (or top few) hexes of the hex stack. instead, all hex removals should remove random hex(es) from the hex stack, not the top hex of the stack. this will cut a lot of power out of hex stack builds.

Yeah but that involves some element of luck, not sure if I'm too fond of that. I would like to know on beforehand what I cut out. Good timing would be less meaningful. And what about Holy Veil?

Apok Omen · Jun 05, 2007, 04:18 AM // 04:18

Not to partially burst everyones bubble, but changing the range on BHA so that it cannot be shot at close range might be a little difficult to achieve.

We all know that there are certain skills that can only be cast at half-range, but the proposed range change (hey, I rhymed :P) would be confusing due to many situations:

1) The types of bows used by the Ranger class. There are certain bows that can shoot long distance-long arc, long distance-short arc, short distance-long arc, and short distance-short arc.

Now, most "good" BHA rangers use a Shortbow to use as a marker of how close to get to the soon-to-be dazed. Having to make the BHA skill a long distance shot (and I'm guessing that you are all thinking of making it caster-radar range), and this would make the Shortbow obsolete to use.

Anet will not simply make one skill have a specific bow in the player's weapon window just to suit everyone's needs. If by some chance they do, then they would have to make every bow-attack skill have a certain bow to use, and since Anet usually gets bored of the same bars being ran (looks at the Boon/Prot) then that would mean they would make it so that every bow-skill in a normal Ranger's bar require a different bow. And we don't want to see that happen...

2) Terrain. Hills, cliffs, obstacles of anykind give the players an advantage, such as a Ranger at the eye-thing hitting the Zaishen to gain adrenaline faster in HA. ( you know who you are.) This would also need addressing to if they gave the BHA skill the long-shot req.

Introducing this personal mechanic to BHA will give Anet the oppurtunity to change the range on any skill they choose, and that would not be pretty.

Now, I am not saying that I don't want BHA nerfed; believe me, I DO. But I fear that this would open up a can of worms if Anet decided to work that into BHA. Just a heads up.

Wacky · Jun 05, 2007, 04:40 AM // 04:40

Reckless Haste: 25...70% miss chance, 4...10d, 1c, 20r

Wouldn't that make it a bit too powerful on a Mantra of Recovery mesmer?

D Fault · Jun 05, 2007, 04:55 AM // 04:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apok Omen

Now, most "good" BHA rangers use a Shortbow to use as a marker of how close to get to the soon-to-be dazed. Having to make the BHA skill a long distance shot (and I'm guessing that you are all thinking of making it caster-radar range), and this would make the Shortbow obsolete to use.

The suggested change was to 'nearby', which is roughly half the aggro bubble and a little less than half shortbow range. And 'good' rangers usually run recurves anyway.

Quote:

Terrain. Hills, cliffs, obstacles of anykind give the players an advantage, such as a Ranger at the eye-thing hitting the Zaishen to gain adrenaline faster in HA. ( you know who you are.) This would also need addressing to if they gave the BHA skill the long-shot req.

Why would this need addressing?

Quote:

Introducing this personal mechanic to BHA will give Anet the oppurtunity to change the range on any skill they choose, and that would not be pretty.

Now, I am not saying that I don't want BHA nerfed; believe me, I DO. But I fear that this would open up a can of worms if Anet decided to work that into BHA. Just a heads up.

So you think Anet won't just add the change to BHA but to all skills? Thats an interesting belief...